Photographers = Brain Surgeons?
- 02.01.10
- Photography, bridal fair, DIY, insane, photographer
- 214 Comments
AUTHOR’S NOTE: This post – on my personal “diary” blog – got passed around online to photographers. Which was fine, a robust debate ensued in the comments, which ranged from helpful and educational to supportive and understanding to rude and condescending. I’ve not altered anything below in my original post so those of you new to reading this can see what was originally posted. But PLEASE NOTE before you comment that I will NOT approve your comment and allow it to be posted if it’s clear that you haven’t at least skimmed through the other 100+ comments that are already here. There were a lot of very good comments already made, so please don’t waste your time by adding another if it’s going to regurgitate what dozens have already said before you. I stand by my post below as a thrifty bride on a budget – if you are a high-end photographer, I’m not your target client and you aren’t my target photographer so keep that in mind as you read on:
I feel like my second post SHOULD be on something still more broad-scale about my wedding – our venue or color combos or something – but there’s a topic I need to discuss first: photographers. Because I have a lot to say!
Image courtesy of Flickr user ssh
For background: I was at a bridal fair this weekend – the Davenport Jaycees Bridal Expo, which I believe is the largest annual bridal show in the QC area – and it was really great, overall. My mom and sister went with me and we gorged ourselves on cake samples and cream puffs dipped in the chocolate fountain and even a mini wine tasting so obviously it was fun! I got to wear a sticker that proudly proclaimed me as “The Bride!” and 100 vendor booths later, I left weighed down with a large bag of pamphlets, price lists, DVD samples, and even a candy ring (score!). Now that I have a date and venue secured, I found it very helpful to ask some of my specific questions about that site to some potential vendors (like “Hey, DJ, would you also be able to hook me up with sound for the ceremony if it’s taking place in that courtyard area at Black Hawk State Park?”) Good stuff, invaluable really.
So I came home and started sorting through all my newly acquired information, dutifully separating everything into its appropriate category in the wedding planning binder that my cousin Susan very thoughtfully made for me. But the binder wasn’t shutting well and I realized the biggest culprit was the bulging photography section. I realized I’d received many more photography brochures than any other type of vendor so I decided I should sort through them briefly and weed out the ones that were obviously not going to be a good fit for Mike and I.
And I learned this: I should have become a photographer.
Wedding packages that START at $2,500 – and go up to $7,500 or more? Are you serious? Now, let my be clear: I’m not trying to undervalue the skills that a very good photographer must have and the extreme importance of having a very good photographer (as, after all, there are no ‘do-overs’ on the moments they are capturing!). I also understand that their equipment is expensive, they are sacrificing their Saturday night, and it is a job that requires a high level of mental focus and intensity. So I could understand paying them a couple hundred dollars an hour for this job.
But something like $500 an hour, or more? Hey guys, my job requires a lot of mental work and precision and sometimes I work on Saturday nights too. So I’m just saying.
On the other hand, I don’t really blame them for their high costs because, clearly, they wouldn’t have those prices if brides weren’t paying them. And with the average cost of a wedding at something like $22,000, I guess it actually totally makes sense since all my wedding planning guides suggest putting between 10-15% of your wedding budget toward your photographer. But I think every part of that is just entirely insane.
Anyway, once I’d weeded out the insanely expensive photographers (about half), then I started actually looking at what packages the rest offered. And sweet Jesus, here’s the second point of insanity with photographers: I don’t need your fancy leather bound books and $300 print credit and three 8 x 10s and eight wallets. No thank you. Photographers, listen: I want you to come to my wedding, take a lot of really good pictures, and then give them to me on a CD with a personal use copyright release. It’s that simple. Hell, I don’t even care that much if you color correct them and crop them and fancy them up for me – I’m a 21st century girl who is pretty computer-savvy, so I know my way around editing a photo. And I know of about 700 places where I can get them printed on my own, almost always with the aid of an online coupon code. Yes, it would be nice if you offer an online gallery so my family and future in-laws can check them out and order the ones that they would like to have prints of. And I’ll order some from you, too, in all likelihood – like the big ones that I want to frame for my future house. But I definitely don’t want your coffee table leather-bound book that costs $400. I want to print my own 4×6s and go to town with my scissors and my stickers and my massive collection of scrapbooking materials. Many aspects of my wedding will be Do-It-Yourself projects, which I like, so why would I not have a DIY picture album? I like scrapbooking and I like personalization and I want a hand-made book of love to be what’s on my coffee table, even if it’s not quite as fancy-looking as the one you’d “give” me as part of my $7 million photography package.
In conclusion: Now that I’ve weeded out the Wedding-Packages-For-Billionaires and the Wedding-Packages-For-Uncreative-People (no offense intended to billionaires or uncreative people!), I am left with about three potential options that all seem pretty solid. So I’m actually very happy with that process of elimination! I feel less overwhelmed and now am able to more deeply investigate what these three can offer me and what would fit best. And, as a bonus, my planning binder now closes as it’s supposed to and my trash can is instead a bit more bulging 
Next up: Caterers. I’m putting it off because it’s so overwhelmingly beyond me… but I gotta suck it up soon and take care of it. I’ll keep you posted, Engagement Diary!
Engaging Thought of the Day: Sending lots of love – and a big box of goodies – to my school-stressed fiance, who is beginning two weeks of qualifying exams for his PhD program today!
How many more brides and customers do you want to drive away, John?
Firstly, I am not a highly priced pro and our business does give a dvd with all photos and a licence to print etc.
However, anyone who will shoot a wedding for $250 is a poor business man/woman.
Take out business expenses such as insurance, cameras and lens wear, paying of your gear, paying taxes (I bet many of the cheap photographers arent doing this), fuel costs, etc. is more than $250!
I can see why many brides cannot afford the upper price photographers and understand that.
What brides should also understand is that you don’t expect a doctor, plumber etc to reduce their prices to the point they would go out of business.
I have seen where cakes, flowers, etc have cost more than the cost of the photographer, yet the brides expect exceptional photos!
We do not push albums, in fact we encourage brides to use online album companies that supply the software for free to do their own albums for a fraction of the price that most photographers charge. It’s time to get real. I would put myself up against a low paying photographer any day and nail the once in a moment shot. There is an old saying that within reason you get what you pay for!
Leigh Anne
I’ve tried to avoid being personal, but clearly you are finding it difficult not to be unpleasant.
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You so obviously know nothing about running a business. You have got this idea that someone who does weddings for $250 is doing well and, because I charge more than that, you assume that I’m not. I know you won’t accept that you could possibly be wrong, as clearly you more about me than I do, but let me tell you a fact. You are wrong.
Someone who does weddings for $250 is not doing it as a business or for a living. This person does it for a hobby. If her costs were absolutely zero and she didn’t have to buy equipment or fuel or insurance or sample prints, or webspace etc etc etc, she would still have to do 180 weddings a year just to earn the UK national average.
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Obviously nobody’s costs are zero, so in reality she would have to do far more than that. You think that’s good business and that she’s doing well. That’s your perogative, but I still don’t understand why you have to be so unpleasant about it.
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And as for “driving brides away” – I’m happy to drive any bride away who is as rude as you and who expects full service wedding photography for a fraction of what she would have to pay a plumber.
Interestingly enough, if I lived in Britain (which I have before, studying abroad – great place, love it), and made my salary in British pounds, not American dollars – I actually WOULD be looking at the price range of John’s work. (I checked out your site John, good stuff).
I agree with Leigh Anne that I could probably find a “hobby” photographer that would do good work for much less than I’m budgeting. And I really appreciate Paula’s comment that her $650 package IS “top dollar” for the middle class brides that are her clients, because I think that’s spot-on for so many people in today’s economy. And because of Paula’s attitude, I’d much prefer her work to that of a $10,000 pro.
I understand that this conversation is no longer about me at all but since this IS my blog, I figured I could pipe up and say that John isn’t one of the photographers I was even originally posting about. I think his prices ARE reasonable – and I fully understand that “reasonable-ness” is in the eye of the beholder and is very different for everyone, so for some people out there $5,000+ for pictures is reasonable. …I have never met such a person who considers that to be the case but clearly those people exist. Anyway, I’ve gotten so many comments from people assuring me that I’m going to have a miserable photography experience because they’re assuming that since I can’t pay $5,000, then I’m getting a cheap, inexperienced photographer off Craigslist for pennies. And first of all, that’s so rude and condescending and … well … bitter, and people out there like Leigh Anne HAVE had good experiences.
But also, why is there so much dismissing of the middle range? I’m looking for a photographer between $1,000-$1,500, I have been ALL along. I have options, as my post clearly stated — but I was simply surprised by how many photographers I was able to very very quickly dismiss because their packages looked the same in quality but were so much more in cost… which, frankly, makes it very easy to toss that brochure into the recycling bin. I will have someone with a good portfolio and lots of experience, but who also supplements their wedding income with senior portraits and babies and other things throughout the week (or, gasp, even a separate career!) because I hold strong that my photographer for a 5-hour event shouldn’t get paid a full-week’s salary. They shouldn’t be spending that much time editing my pictures, in MY opinion. Solely my opinion.
Some brides want art, I suppose and I understand that art takes time, but I just want pictures. Actual pictures of how the day actually looks, not some fantasy version of how the day was, where my flaws are carefully edited out so that I’m perfection and the sun is made to shine around my head like a halo. I think I’d look at THOSE pictures and go “Sigh. That looks nice… too bad it’s not actually me.”
I don’t have a problem with John’s prices. But I do have a problem with John’s attitude. As somone else noted, I have to agree that his is not the kind of presence I would want to have at my wedding. If John isn’t happy or cannot perform or cannot compete with those charging less, that’s fine. He should charge all he wants. But to berate and criticize those who are successful wedding photographers who charge less than he does only makes John himself look bad and sour. No thank you! Nothing worse at a wedding than one who is sour or argumentative. I think it stands to reason that if someone is charging whatever amount, and that individual is happy and has been getting jobs for years at those prices, then that individual must be making, well, maybe not enough money for Joooooooohn, but they must be making enough for themselves to be happy. Isn’t that what matters here? Like my grandma used to say, “It’s none of your business how much I make.” It’s important when one is in business to mind one’s own business and not mind the business of others. And, hey, if they aren’t making as much money as John and they are happy, well, I think that’s wonderful for their clients who are certainly happy for the savings!
Sara, with all due respect this is the problem with this entire thread. I really think that you have misread my intentions here and you most certainly have misread the type of person that I am. All I’m doing is defending the profession of wedding photography against some pretty insulting posts. All I’m getting in return is a barrage of insults.
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Where did I say that I “cannot perform or cannot compete with those charging less”?
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Where did I “berate and criticize those who are successful wedding photographers”?
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All I have said is that it is not possible to do full weddings for $250 and make a living. It’s a fact. But one or two posters feel that that is what we should charge. Ask any wedding photographer, or anyone running a business – you can’t do it. What is wrong with stating this?
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If you read my posts you will see that I said of the photographer in question: “one photographer who is just starting out, clearly talented and who will be charging much more when she is established – either that or she does it just for pleasure”. In what way is that berating her? In what way does that make me bad and sour?
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And where did this assumption come from that this person is successful?
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And this quote “maybe not enough money for Joooooooohn” – where did that come from?
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I don’t actually make a vast living out of this. I could probably earn more at a salaried job, but because I love doing it and because neither myself or my wife is particularly money orientated, I have made it my career, just as my father, my grandfather and my great grandfather did. I earn a reasonable and comfortable living at it and get as many weddings as I can handle, mainly from word of mouth recommendations for both the way I perform on the day and for the end results. Again feel free to look at the comments section on my website.
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I’m sorry that people feel the need to be like this. It could have been a much more civil debate without these personal attacks.
And to Jess, thank you for your comments.
John,
I like your work and think you are really good at what you do. If I was ever in the UK again I would think it would be fun to spend some time with you at a local pub having a pint or two, sampling the local fare and talking about photography.
That said, I think you are trying to defend something that doesn’t need to be defended. Consider a person going to the local Porsche dealer and seeing the Carrera’s sticker price. Most shopping for a first car would react in shock, like Jess to a pro photographer’s price, upon first learning of the high price. One could get a new VW Jetta for a lot less. It does a lot of what a Porsche Carrera can do (e.g, take a person from one place to another etc.), but not everything. What is the reaction of a Porsche sales person to customer’s verbal price tag shock? Might I suggest that the reaction should be something like “The price is what it says. If you want the car, you will pay the price.” An argument/debate about the differences between the Porsche and VW only lowers the Porsche’s value in the eyes of the consumer to that of a VW. That is, the Porsche dealer will never win the price/value debate and so they will never venture in that direction. That is good marketing.
Now consider what this blog has done overall. Every pro/semi-pro photographer who posted here, on twitter, forums or on their blog I might liken to the Porsche sales person arguing why the their car is better than a consumer grade VW. I would suggest that all it does is damage the reputation of professionals and lowers them to that of a consumer grade (e.g., hobbyist) photographer. This is not good if you are a high-end professional photographer, but good if you are a consumer grade photographer. I would suggest that the reaction professional photographers to the original post several weeks ago should have been to ignore it. That is, they should have said that “The price is what it is. If you want me to do the work then you will have to pay the price.” Instead, there has been a long debate and the hobbyist photographer is winning in the eyes of the consumer. (You might recognize this as the tone in the bog has changed over the past several days.) And while I enjoyed all of the laughs this blog has provided over the last couple of weeks I hope, for their sake, professional ‘togs consider what is happening. Would not their business have done better if this whole bog never happened and instead they went somewhere like Las Vegas for the week and relaxed?
Just a thought.
Ivan – thanks for that and for injecting some common sense. And yes – do get in touch if you’re ever in the UK – it would be good to chat.
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You’re absolutely right – I am defending something that doesn’t need defending. In so doing, absolutely nothing has been achieved. Hiring anyone from any profession for a substantial number of hours will inevitably mean substantial expense. There’s little point in trying to defend that.
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And there’s certainly no point in rising to personal insults. If anyone thinks that I would be sour or have an attitude problem at a wedding then they are welcome to look at the galleries on my website and look at the faces of the people that I’m photographing. You see, there I go again being all defensive!
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Anyway, thanks again. And to Jess – very best wishes to you and sorry we’ve used up so much of your webspace! All the best to you.
Clearly a big sticking point was the math there. If I pay $30 for a 5-minute lapdance, is the dancer really getting $360 per hour?
Dana, said “I have worked as an architectural photographer now for many years.”
I’m glad you’ve found what you like to do. I’m sad though, that you seem to be projecting your own feelings of having to settle for weddings for a time onto the rest of the folks doing so. Photography is a diverse field and photographers are a diverse set of people. I believe that there are plenty of photographers who truly do love weddings, and that’s why they stay in that specialty, not because they can’t do anything else. I think I’d hate stalking wildlife and lugging around huge telephotos, but that’s not my bag.
For a funny illustration of such, see the Brain Surgeon video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I) 58 seconds in.
Because of the greatly lowered perceived barrier to entry (DSLR, website) there are going to be aspiring photographers who start booking clients very quickly. You might be able to catch the next rising star and be their first or second client on their meteoric rise. This is Bride and Mother’s experience, it sounds like. Or you might have the next person who thinks they can do it and then disappears. Plenty of those horror stories to go around.
Jess, you seem like a fine human being and I wouldn’t wish the latter on you. Once you dip below a certain price point, the risk goes up considerably. It’s harder but not impossible to become a cautionary tale.
My perception is that if someone likes doing something, they’ll find a way to keep doing it. In this case, by minimizing risk and staying profitable.
There is also a vast range of couples and the importance they place on various parts of the wedding. Some might be happy with a quiet civil ceremony at City Hall, even if they could afford a massive extravaganza. (I say that as a ‘legal fiction’-style example; their existence has a low probability.) One of my favorite photographer friends had one couple double their total wedding budget to afford him–it was that important to them to have a documentary record of the emotions and moments of the people and the day.
But if you, your fiancé and families are cool with the balance of risk and price, there’s really little any blog comment will do to sway your minds. Like many online discussions, this one sparked a lot of anger and ill will, and that’s sad to see.
One thing I’ve seen is putting contributions towards photography on the gift registry. I’m not sure if this is an option for you two. In the end, though, what matters is that you have each other, right?
Thanks Jess for the love… I truly love what I get to provide for my couples. You know, I just want to serve others and I feel I can do that through photography. I understand I probably won’t ever get published or be featured on one of those amazing blogs that I follow because of the “lower” cliental I choose to serve, but my brides and their families love me and my work, because the images I take bring them back to the emotion of their wedding day. That is what is about for me
Oh and on a side note, whoever it was that sent me hate e-mail… you have your own personal issues to deal with if you feel threatened by the words I shared here. I simply love what I do and CHOOSE to serve families in the middle class income bracket.
I just found this on Facebook this morning. This is what you risk if you don’t hire the right person and ask your questions……
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js7RzcdDcMs
it’s not good for anyone
That video illustrates the earlier point that wedding photographers are the burger flippers of the photo world. Actually, flipping burgers a probably a step up.
I think that people don’t appreciate photographers that much because they think that all we do is stand there and snap away pictures, but we are a lot more than that. We are the ones in charge of your memories. the ones that are supposed to take that special image of every special moment in your wedding day.. Sure, a lot of people think that $2500 is too much for a wedding but our job doesn’t end that day. We have to go trough every single wedding image we took and we have to make it perfect, and that takes a lot of work.
And I know that a lot of photographers “overcharge” but let us think for a moment here:
1. How much does a wedding dress cost?
A good one would cost $500+ and you use it for a few hours.
2. How much are the tux?
Renting it will be like $100+ and you use it for a couple hours.
3. DJ, Catering, Venue, etc.
You will be using this for a couple of hours, etc.
4. Photographer.
The images of your wedding day that will still be there for generations. This is the actual documentation of that special day.
So in summary, would you go to a doctor that charges $20 for a brain operation or the one that charges $10,000. We as photographers are important, and thats why it’s recommended to have from 10% -20% of the budget directed to the photographer. And I know that some charge a lot, but you are paying for that exclusivity, its like getting your hair done by a great hair stylist. It’s going to cost you $300 for a hair cut and you can get it for $20 anywhere. But you are paying for that exclusivity.